Chevy Volt

[indianasolar]

GM killed the EV1 by only leasing them. The owners never wanted to give them back. I hope the price is still closer to $30k. I would consider one then.

[thefirebuilds]

GM states they spent 35k on the battery packs for the ev1 and lost their ass on that program.

the volt is supposed to be close to 40k.

[GreenBrien]

The Chevy Volt was supposed to be priced in a much lower bracket $20k-$30k. I guess GM couldn't get the costs down because that's not going to happen.

[mauried]

The specs on the Volt indicate that it can achieve 40 miles running on electric power alone, and given that it achieves 4 miles per Kwh, means a 10 KWh battery pack at a minimum.
Using Lithium Ion battery technology, a 10 KWh battery pack currently costs
approx $10K, so at least $10K of the cars cost is the battery.
This is unfortunately still the achilles heel of electric cars, the batteries are too expensive.

[Sunking]

Originally Posted by mauried

The specs on the Volt indicate that it can achieve 40 miles running on electric power alone, and given that it achieves 4 miles per Kwh, means a 10 KWh battery pack at a minimum.
Using Lithium Ion battery technology, a 10 KWh battery pack currently costs
approx $10K, so at least $10K of the cars cost is the battery.
This is unfortunately still the achilles heel of electric cars, the batteries are too expensive.

I think you are partially correct with respect to cost, however today LiFe4Po cost are down around $400 to $500 /kwh, but the real roadblock is energy density and cycle life.

For example the Telsa Roadster uses Cobalt Lithium Ion and has an energy density of 200 wh/kg, and the Telsa is very efficient at 150 wh/mile so with its 39 Kwh battery gives it s range of about 250 miles. Compare the efficiency and range to the Chevy Volt.

The problem with Cobalt chemistry is cycle life (around 200 to 300 cycles), overheats, $700/kwh and you can understand why Telsa has had to be bailed out. Once owners found out the battery pack needed to be replaced after a couple of short years at a reported cost of $25K sales crashed and there are more used ones up for sale than in showrooms.

In steps LiFe4Po battery chemistry. It has great cycle life, no safety issues, cost of around $500/kwh, but the bad is energy density of 90 wh/kg. That is less than half of Cobalt which means very little range between charges.

I am a huge advocate of EV's, but until we get a better battery chemistry I am affraid it will remain a niche market.

[Sunking]

Originally Posted by Alex

How kill the EV1? remember that.

Alex do not know if you are still around, but I have seen the movie twice now.

FWIW it is titled "WHO KILLED THE EV"

I do not buy into the producers conspiracy theories they claim, I think it is much simpler than that, just pure free market killed the EV. GM, Ford, Honda, and Toyota all built an EV as a result of California CARB requirements, and all discontinued and destroyed most of the vehicles after California dropped the CARB requirements. IMO if there had been a real market (demand) to justify a production run, they would have made then and put up for sale. But the market was just not there at the time.

[jaysolar]

Originally Posted by Sunking

For example the Telsa Roadster uses Cobalt Lithium Ion and has an energy density of 200 wh/kg, and the Telsa is very efficient at 150 wh/mile so with its 39 Kwh battery gives it s range of about 250 miles. Compare the efficiency and range to the Chevy Volt.

The problem with Cobalt chemistry is cycle life (around 200 to 300 cycles), overheats, $700/kwh and you can understand why Telsa has had to be bailed out. Once owners found out the battery pack needed to be replaced after a couple of short years at a reported cost of $25K sales crashed and there are more used ones up for sale than in showrooms.

Explain this to me in greater detail please.

Also, if anyone knows about lithium-air batteries, what is it and is it viable?

[Sunking]

GM spent over $150K on the EV1, there was no ROI. Cut your losses.

[mauried]

One of the major problems that any EV car manufacturer is going to have to deal with when selling EVs is what kind of support, guarantee, warranty will be provided for the battery pack.
The battery pack in an EV is the single most expensive component of the car.
Currently, EV manufacturers avoid the issue, by avoiding talking about how long the battery pack will last, or using vague terms, which in the case of the Tesla is that the battery pack should last 100000 miles.
Note the word "should".
If the battery pack doesnt last that long, basically tough luck.
Currently, Lithium Ion batteries are about the best hope, but they have some pretty major problems when long life is required.
Cycle times, shelf life , temperature degredation are all issues that an EV car manufacturer will have to deal with, and the last thing that an EV car manufacturer wants is a battery recall.
Currently, the only battery thats used in electric cars that comes with a mmanufacturer warranty is the battery in the Toyota Prius which is NIMH, not Lithium Ion.
It lasts a long time, because its extremely carefully controlled in terms of depth of discharge, and its a small battery (1.2 KWH costing approx $3000), so the risk to the car manufacturer is small if some batteries do need replacing.

[Sunking]

Mauried your assessment is fairly accurate but a bit out of date. LifePO4 batteries hold a lot of promise and have worked around most of the barriers keeping EV's out of the main stream

The heating, safety, and cycle life issues are gone with LiFePO4 chemistry. What is left is energy density (wh/kg), shortened life from rapid charging, cost per Kwh of storage, and break-in period.

Right now today it is no problem to make a mid sized EV with all the bells and whistles we come to expect and demand with 200 mile range, and a battery to last 10 years or 3000 cycles using LiFePO4 chemistry At today's fuel prices (electricity) around 2 to 4-cents per mile. Even if coal is used for the fuel wold mean about an 80% reduction in CO2 emissions, and 100% if the fuel is uranium.

The really big stumbling block left is cost, and America is set to loose out on the boom to China. Currently the USA has no manufacturing facilities to produce LiFePO4 batteries. It will be a matter of a few years before the Chinese solve the problems, corner the market, and lock it up.